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Talk:Torizo
This revision... does anyone think it is a little too much guessing? Me too. It sounds too much like a speech rather than a scientific thesis. User:Tuckerscreator 23:01 April 2009 Where is the canon source for the name "Torizo"? In Japanese, "tori" and "chou" are simply different readings of the same character that means "bird" (NB: "-zo" means "clan" or "family") so it seems terribly unlikely that this article should even bear this name. Perhaps it should be merged with Chozo Statue. 03:37, November 23, 2009 (UTC) I've always heard that "Chozo" meant "Carved statue". (I know "Chou", also.) ChozoBoy http://metroid.wikia.com ADMIN (Talk/ ) 03:50, November 23, 2009 (UTC) * I stand corrected. It seems I've confused -zo with -zoku. However, it would appear that the truth of the matter is far more complicated than I had originally suspected. You are correct that "chouzou" means "carved statue." It is written 彫像. This is NOT used exclusively to refer to the statues of the Chozo people; it is also used, for example, to refer to the golden statue of the four bosses in Super Metroid. Specifically, what we call a "Chozo statue" is referred to as 鳥人の像 ("choujin no zou", or "statue of bird person"). The people themselves are referred to as the "choujinzoku" (鳥人族, tribe of the bird people) -- the name "Chozo" is a mistake on the part of the localization team in the same vein as referring to the "Barrier Suit" as the "Varia Suit." Furthermore, as a linguistic point of note, "torizou" is highly unlikely as the Chinese-type reading (in this case "chou") is usually preferred over the Japanese-type reading (in this case "tori") when a character is used in a multi-kanji compound. My conclusion, therefore, stands: there is no canon basis for calling the animated variants of the statues "Torizo." 05:20, November 25, 2009 (UTC) (same as previous anonymous poster, you can call me Coda) :Why not make a username? Regardless, you've got to sign you post with four "~" :Also, we have to use anything given by NOA as canon, here. ChozoBoy http://metroid.wikia.com ADMIN (Talk/ ) 06:21, November 25, 2009 (UTC) :: Lazy and in a hurry. :P I know, I know. I'll register one of these days. (And I did sign that post like that, go look again. I know better.) I agree, NoA's word is canon, and NoA says that the people are called the Chozo, and I'm fine with that. My complaint is specifically with the word "Torizo" which I have only seen used by fans, never in any canon sources. Coda 13:26, November 25, 2009 (UTC) I'm seeing it on page 40 of the Super Metroid guide. You can find it on MDb for download. ChozoBoy http://metroid.wikia.com ADMIN (Talk/ ) 18:05, November 25, 2009 (UTC) : Interesting. I still find this a dubious source of canon, but at least there's a source. It's still obscure enough that I think merging it into Chozo Statue as a comment would be better than keeping it as a whole article, but I don't know the policies of Wikitroid on the matter. Coda 00:19, November 26, 2009 (UTC) Bird attack? I don't remember ever seeing it do that. I just fought this guy four or five times, nothing. Checked his spritesheets, found no animations for that or his projectiles. Anyone have a source on that? O_o Dazuro 06:32, August 2, 2010 (UTC) Are you talking about the bird creatures that it shoots? Here's a link to a video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQKJhF1fLZo At around 58 seconds, though the Torizo itself is offscreen, you can see the bird-like creatures fly toward Samus. This attack was never used against you Dazuro? Strange. (Latinlingo 19:37, August 2, 2010 (UTC)) .. The hell?! No, I've never seen that at all. I've beaten that game dozens of times and it's never done that to me. I tried staying close to it, I tried keeping my distance, but nothing I did triggered the attack. How strange. Dazuro 21:00, August 2, 2010 (UTC) Judging from the video, it might be an attack that the Golden Torizo uses only when its very close to death. Perhaps in the past, you've been able to kill it before it could even launch the little birds.(Latinlingo 21:43, August 2, 2010 (UTC)) Here's another. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOmMeLC9tk4&feature=related It drops "eggs" that they hatch from. ChozoBoy http://metroid.wikia.com ADMIN (Talk/ ) 01:13, August 4, 2010 (UTC) Re: Bird attack No, I'm certain it was the waves. It did the arm flailing thing and everything. The first Troizo didn't do that on my first run-through, but my second. For the record, this was on the Virtual Console. They do change some things from the original game, so this may have been added. I fought the golden one, too, and its attack was WAY faster and had twice as many waves, which could back up the theory that Nintendo added the new attack in with the Virtual Console release. Then again, maybe it was because I stopped partway through and re-tried, like the programmers were saying in effect, "Oh, not hard enough for you, huh?" Probably not, though. I wish I had a camera on it when it did that, but I never knew that the wave thing was unusual, so I would never have thought to record that anyway. Too bad, though, 'cuz that glitch attack dealt most of the damage it did to me. It would also be nice to use the video to prove my point, but, again, oh, well. P.S. I killed the golden one too fast to see the birds. I got in real close and just shot Super Missiles at it too fast for it to grab them all. ~Sidd Looking at this screenshot, I'm thinking they might only show when the belly is ruptured. Just a thought. ChozoBoy http://metroid.wikia.com ADMIN (Talk/ ) 10:32, August 18, 2010 (UTC) Actually, the Gold Torizo can open his belly at will to release the birds, and closes it once the attack is done. Creepy regenerative ability... (Latinlingo 22:14, August 18, 2010 (UTC)) How Do We Know if the Torizo Are Androids? Ever since the difference between the word "Chozo" and "Torizo" were used, fans have made fanfics depicting these two as similar species, but that the Chozo were peaceful, while the Torizo were warfaring. I read somewhere that "Torizo" was used for the Chozo Samus encounters on planet Zebes because the golden statue that leads to Mother Brain was called "Chozo." I am not certain if that is correct. Anyway, people have said that the Torizo are androids, but where is the proof for this? By the way, I would not recommend using Metroid Prime for proof, as Metroid Prime was made many years after Super Metroid, and we cannot be certain that the Torizo in Super Metroid are much like the statues in Metroid Prime. We never see any Torizo battle Samus, let alone anyone else in Metroid Prime. We are left wondering why the Torizo in Metroid Prime did not attack Samus like they did in Super Metroid. Metroid Fan 17:53, December 24, 2010 (UTC) umm, It was in a scan and its canon so :P Metroid101 21:20, December 24, 2010 (UTC) Are androids half-organic? Cause that is the case for the Torizo, they start dripping bodily fluids from their stomachs and heads. And yes, the Prime scan confirms that these special chozo statues are guardians created by chozos. ( 22:10, December 24, 2010 (UTC)) What was in the scan? Androids aren't bio-mechanical. Those are cyborgs. I really hope Nintendo isn't confusing android with cyborg like they seem to have confused magma with lava. -.- Metroid Fan 23:13, December 25, 2010 (UTC) I don't see why androids could not be biomechanical, but at the same time they don't necessarily need to be. An android is any robot that physically resembles a living being, whether it uses organic components or not. I would say that the Torizo are not androids because while they are shaped like Chozo, you can easily tell that they are something different. However, they may or may not contain biological components. It certainly looks like there is something organic in the thing's stomach, but it could just as easily be some sort of machine fluid (i.e. a lubricant or coolant or something of that sort).-- 17:28, December 27, 2010 (UTC) (This is AdmrialSakai, who forgot to log in). There is evidence that points to it being somewhat organic, cause an X parasite is able to infect/mimic a Chozo statue in Fusion and what seems to be a Torizo in Sector 2, Nettori.( 18:51, December 27, 2010 (UTC)) Forgot about that... it's still possible that the X simply mimicked inorganic components as they did with Nightmare and thus it's still possible that the Torizo are purely mechanical, but I'd say that it's much more likely that they are at least partially organic.-- 20:15, December 27, 2010 (UTC) Biomechanics is the study of the mechanics of a living organism. An android is not an organism, as androids aren't under the definition of an organism. An android may have a synthetic form of a human or animal, but it is in no way a living organism. Hence the word, "android," which has the Greek word ανερ. The "-oid" part is not only used in "android." You have planetoid, asteroid, meteoroid. So, android simply means "like a man," or "form of a man." I'm sure you know this already. The X can mimick the inorganic components, but it would also mean that the X mimicked an organic part of a Torizo. Thus, these Torizo would no longer be androids, but cyborgs. 2D games don't put as much detail on characters or objects like a 3D plane would. Metroid Fan 22:17, December 27, 2010 (UTC) As I said, "more likely that they are at least partially organic". So it is a cyborg. (At least according to the definition of cyborg we appear to be using, which is "any being consisting of both biological and mechanical components". Some might argue that a cyborg needs to have strarted out as fully organic and then had mechanical components added later, but I am not one of them.) However, the Torizo is also built to look the same as its creators, the Chozo, so it is also an android. (Although whether it is anthropomorphic...... errr.... Chozomorphic enough to qualify could be debated as well...)--AdmiralSakai 22:43, December 27, 2010 (UTC) A cyborg cannot be an android. They're different. And I don't know anyone but you who holds the idea that a cyborg doesn't have to start out as fully organic. That is to say, someone who is born from the womb first and then given enhanced abilities due to technology. I don't even know anyone in fiction who started out entirely mechanical and then was given organic flesh and organs. If the Chozo created the Torizo, then the Torizo are androids, not cyborgs. Synthetic things are unnatural and/or inorganic. In the Metroid instruction manual, it said of Samus, "He is a cyborg: his entire body has been surgically strengthened with robotics, giving him superpowers." Even at that time before this was retconned, a cyborg was understood different from what you're saying. Victor Stone, a.k.a. Cyborg, started out as a human. Tony Stark and James Rhodes started out as humans before becoming cyborgs. If the Torizo are androids, then the X should not have been able to mimick that one Chozo on the B.S.L. Metroid Fan 04:23, December 28, 2010 (UTC) So what category do you have in mind to give to Torizo, Metroid Fan? I was going for Cyborg, but judging from your last post, you dont seem to be okay with that. And neither with Androids. ( 05:35, December 28, 2010 (UTC)) Mother Brain is listed as a cyborg. Since she did not start out as a fully organic entity but was rather built from the beginning from both organic and mechanical components, I am assuming that we are using the definition that I outlined above. If we are not, then please tell me to fix Mother Brain's entry, or do so yourself, to prevent further ambiguity. Now to the subject of Androids. The android category is currently independant of the cyborg category, provided that we are using the wider definition of cyborg that includes Mother Brain: if a cyborg is any creature composed of both organic and mechanical components, then an android could have been constructed using both organic and mechanical components- i.e. also a cyborg. However, I am still unsure whether the Torizo resemble the Chozo enough to be considered androids, as opposed to merely being "Chozomorphic" but clearly recognizeable as something else.--AdmiralSakai 14:22, December 28, 2010 (UTC) I was going for cyborg, 24.201.170.219, but not under the definition AdmiralSakai defines it as. It seems that Terminators are called "cyborgs" because they have living tissue. Except, that contradicts itself because this living tissue is made up of synthetic material. So I think James Cameron messed up there. Now, AdmiralSakai, Mother Brain isn't listed under the cyborg category. It simply is an AI. Mother Brain is called a "mechanical life vein" in Metroid, and "mechanical life form" in Metroid: Zero Mission, both in the intro and instruction manual. It is referred to as "the biomechanical Mother Brain" in Metroid Fusion. Mother Brain is not an android because it does not take the form of a human being. That would be MB, who started out similarly like Mother Brain, but then was given a body so that the Metroids would be able to form a bond. Actually, Mother Brain is listed under the "Cyborgs" category. Don't believe me? Look at the list of categories on the bottom of her page. If we are indeed using the narrower definition of Cyborg, that should not be there. If Mother Brain remains listed as a cyborg, then consistancy would require that the Torizo be included as well.--AdmiralSakai 20:25, December 28, 2010 (UTC) Torizo's are definately android's ... They are robots or cyborgs meant to look like a Chozo. Thats an Android, it doesn't have to look like a human. Now the cyborg debate is an issue, I suggest to put the cyborg category in there since somehow the X-Parasite have managed to duplicate one, and the X can only dublicate organic substances. Metroid101 23:01, December 28, 2010 (UTC) My concern with the android category is whether or not the Torizo actually looks identical to a Chozo or is merely "Chozoid". If the latter is true, it is no more an android than C3PO is. I would also hold off on deciding the "cyborg" category until we figure out specifically what definition of cyborg we are using.--AdmiralSakai 23:06, December 28, 2010 (UTC) Either a robot with organic parts or an organic creature with mechaical parts. Metroid101 23:08, December 28, 2010 (UTC) So it's settled, then? (I will refrain from adding the Android classification until I get more information on how "Chozoid" the Torizo actually is.)--AdmiralSakai 23:59, December 28, 2010 (UTC) I meant "page," AdmiralSakai, which is why I liked the page to "Cyborg." Mother Brain isn't mentioned. Mother Brain is only an AI. Metroid101, an android is supposed to look human, or take the form of a human. Etymologically speaking, android means, "automaton resembling a human being." Even today's definition supports this. CP30 would be a good example of an android in Star Wars. Data would be a good example of an android in Star Trek. MB takes the form of a human, thus making her an android in the Metroid universe. If she truly is the first android in the Metroid universe, then the Torizo cannot be the first. Otherwise, that sentence should be removed in the MB article. A cyborg is an organism implanted with cybernetics. Tony Stark falls under this category, as does James Rhodes and Victor Stone, who rightfully goes by the name "Cyborg." The Borg in Star Trek are cybernetic organisms. Ghor and Weavel are cyborgs in the Metroid universe. These two were originally organisms that were birthed before they were given cybernetics to support them from the accidents they suffered. Of course, one not need to suffer in order to have cybernetics implanted. This could be an improvement in the human evolution, i.e., transhumanism. By the way, I would abstain from using the word robot. It could take the form of a human, but not all robots appear this way. Metroid Fan 00:13, December 29, 2010 (UTC) Good on "android" then. As for the cyborg classification, I opened a topic on Talk:Cyborg to attempt to resolve this ambiguity at the source. I would suggest moving this discussion there.--AdmiralSakai 00:35, December 29, 2010 (UTC) I thought you were saying that the Torizo were cyborgs. Now I see you removed the cyborg category. Metroid Fan 18:11, December 29, 2010 (UTC) We concluded that the cyborg category only applied to full organics that recieved mechanical components later on. As such, the Torizo is no longer included. Feel free to discuss re-broadening the category with me on Talk:Cyborg.--AdmiralSakai 18:48, December 29, 2010 (UTC)